Lievito Madre

Bread making traditions in Italy commonly start with a sourdough starter called “pasta madre” or “lievito madre”. This is a firm sourdough starter maintained at around 50% hydration and continuously propagated with daily refreshments. The wet style starter is not so typical with professionals but has shown some adoption in modern times, mostly by home bakers. Maintenance and the specific parameters of the “madre” vary according to the practice of the maestro but is typically rebuilt at a 1:1 (madre:flour) ratio at least once a day.

Characterised by a microbiota consisting of yeasts (Kazachstania / Saccharomyces) and lactic acid bacteria (LAB), the typically dominant species, hetero-fermentative Fructilactobacillus sanfranciscensis (formerly Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis) produces lactic acid, acetic acid, ethanol and CO2.

Warm temperatures above 25°C promote the ideal balance of acids; 4 parts lactic to 1 part acetic ideal for sweet leavened pastries. At cool room temperatures a balance of 3:1 (lactic:acetic) is ideal for bread.

Conservation / Maintenance:

To ensure viability, the madre should be rebuilt at least once a day while being held at a temperature of 15-18°C. Or once a week if refrigerated to around 4°C.

There are two common techniques for the conservation during this period.

  • Bound. The lievito madre is wrapped in cloth and tied with rope.
  • In water. The lievito madre is placed directly into a bowl of cold water.

When conserved in a volume of water the LM will rise to the surface and be exposed to the air (more aerobic conditions) however, acidity accumulates more slowly as it is lost to the surrounding water. Conversely the binding method creates an anaerobic environment which stimulates hetero-lactic fermentation and can lead to higher levels of acidity, however as the generated CO2 is trapped the pH decreases more rapidly and limits bacterial growth.

Rinfreschi / “Refreshments” :

For production the madre is “refreshed” by adding flour and water and allowed to leaven at temperatures between 25-30°C the ideal being 27/28°C for approx. 3-4 hours. This may be done one or more times in succession. This operation allows the baker to build enough mass to leaven large batches of dough. Normally the madre is refreshed once or twice before making bread. But more enriched doughs like Panettone may require at least three or more refreshments to leaven correctly. Importantly after building the leaven a piece is reserved, and is allowed to rise slowly overnight, this becomes the new mother for the next day.

Refreshed LM pH optimum: 4.1-4.5. But will vary according to formula and maintenance method.

Lavaggio – “Washing” / Bagnetto:

After a period of storage the madre may be washed in bath of sweetened water (2g of table sugar per litre of water). Lasting around 20 minutes this is done to remove acetic acid and bring oxygen to the madre. There is a cold (20°C) bath commonly performed in conjunction with the bound method and a warm (38°C) bath commonly used with the “in water” method of storage.

Typical daily build procedure:

0940 Mother, pH 3.7-4.1, lavaggio
1000 Refresh
1400 Refresh
1800 Refresh – Storage, 12-16hrs @ 15-18°C

LM_maintenance1

More info:

Il rinfresco del lievito madre (Alfonso Pepe) | ItaliaSquista
Lievito madre, ricetta di Iginio Massari | Dissapore

A selection of articles from DolceSalato: Text in Italian:

  1. Natural yeast: from theory to practice (Part I)
  2. Natural yeast: from theory to practice (Part II)
  3. Natural yeast: from theory to practice (Part III)
  4. Natural yeast: from theory to practice (Part IV)

Conservation method per pastry chef / baker

 madre…
Iginio Massaribound / legato
Achille Zoiabound / legato
Carlo Pozzabound / legato
Giovanni Pinabound / legato
Leonardo Di Carlobound / legato
Massimo Vitalibound / legato
Francesco Favoritobound / legato
Piergiorgio Giorilliin water / in acqua
Rolando Morandinin water / in acqua
Renato Boscoin water / in acqua
Francesco Elmiin water / in acqua
Sara Papain water / in acqua
Alfonso Pepein water / in acqua

71 thoughts on “Lievito Madre

  1. What is the gram measurements for your starter using flour, raisins and strawberries? You mentioned feeding every 4 hours for what period of time? How long does the starter take to mature.?
    I would love to give it a try this year but need a little more specifics, like a step by step process. I must give you props for an amazing job on the panettone. The best I have seen so far on the Internet.

    Thanks Ann

    • Hi Ann,
      If you have a regular sourdough already, it may be easier to convert it. This is a 50% hydration sourdough fed always 1:1 (eg. 100g leaven, 100g flour, 50g water). You’ll need to feed it daily (every 12-24 hours) keeping it at room temperature, wrapped in cloth and tied tightly. It will take at least two weeks to become mature.
      Once mature, feed 3 times every 4 hours at 28C before using for cakes like panettone. It must triple in size each time. If not, take an extra 10% leaven on the next feed.

      I’m glad you like my Panettone, Thank you.

      If you have any more questions, feel free to contact me over at thefreshloaf.com

      • Thank you so much for responding. I made a lot different kinds of sourdough starters last year, which led to a lot of waste with the excess sourdough. I have some that I have dried out, and some I have kept frozen, however I would like to try it at 50 % hydration and follow your method and see what happens. I did stumble on you at the fresh loaf where I am a member researching panettone. Thanks again.

        Ann.

  2. Hi Michael, I reread your master class on lievito it is excellent. I maintain a rye starter but mine is 1to1, Dark rye and bottled water. It is good but I like your method better for a white flour product. Thanks for taking the time to explain your process so minutely. I too love process. I struggled to get bread that tasted like European breads and am still learning. This post gives me a new look on leaven. Thanks for sharing the process. Pam

  3. Hello! Someone recommended your site to me, because I am trying to keep and make whole grain sourdough breads, but they are so used to sweeter breads that they can detect any kind of sour no matter how soft my bread ends up; they just don’t like it. I know I am risking having a slight sour taste by using whole wheat flour, but could I possibly use your starter with freshly ground wheat? I started a Peter Reinhart starter last week and I am up for my first refreshing, but it seems even at a 75% hydration, my family is still a bit sensitive. I know my starter is still young and that accounts for some of the taste, but I cannot afford to keep throwing out bread. I would like to have some winning breads with my duds as I keep experimenting. In any case, please let me know of any adjustments I would have to make to your process by using whole wheat flour?
    Also, since this is a 50% hydration, what adjustments do you usually have to make to recipes that call for 100% hydration starter and uses the sourdough as a levain? Thanks so much for any help you could give me!

  4. Hello! Someone recommended your site to me, because I am trying to keep and make whole grain sourdough breads, but they are so used to sweeter breads that they can detect any kind of sour no matter how soft my bread ends up; they just don’t like it. I know I am risking having a slight sour taste by using whole wheat flour, but could I possibly use your starter with freshly ground wheat (I have hard red winter wheat and hard white winter wheat)? I started a Peter Reinhart starter last week and I am up for my first refreshing, but it seems even at a 75% hydration, my family is still a bit sensitive. I know my starter is still young and that accounts for some of the taste, but I cannot afford to keep throwing out bread. I would like to have some winning breads with my duds as I keep experimenting. In any case, please let me know of any adjustments I would have to make to your process by using whole wheat flour?
    Also, since this is a 50% hydration, what adjustments do you usually have to make to recipes that call for 100% hydration starter and uses the sourdough as a levain? Thanks so much for any help you could give me!

  5. hi your panettone looks great. i have tried to follow your instructions for the natural yeast kept in water and i just have a couple of questions:-
    1. how long does it take for the yeast to become mature using the water method?
    2. when you start feeding every 4 hours are you still putting the yeast in the water or are you proving it just in a bowl.

    • Hi Carl. Thanks.
      1. When it floats in less than three hours at 18C it’s a good sign of maturity. Less than 1 hour it is very strong.
      2. This stage is not done in water. Just loosely covered with cloth.

  6. hi michael
    ok so my starter has been floating in water for a week and a half now, its had a feed every day of 500g flour (caputo) 500g yeast and 250g water at 20 oc. its kept in a bakery proover at 18oc but its not floating until 7 to 8 hrs??

    should i continue to feed it everyday until it floats in an hour??

    i have tried to make a panettone using this yeast. i feed it 3 times every 4 hours then made the 1st dough using cresci book ( modern panettone recipe). it was kept in a proover set at 28oc, the dough did move a bit but after 15hrs it had not tripled so i gave up. does this mean the yeast is not mature enough yet?

    • The method described on this page is a maintenance routine applicable to a starter that has already been established. 7-8 hours is far, far, too long. Allow the starter to mature before feeding again, there are many way to do this.

      Don’t run before you can walk. Also the quantities of flour and water you are using very wasteful at this stage.

  7. hi michael
    sorry me again, when i feed my yeast everyday before i feed it i slice it up and put it in water with a little bit of sugar in for 15 mins. is this the correct thing to do ??

  8. Hi Michael

    Very interesting article.
    I wonder if this kind of starter will be help me to avoid sour breads which I do no like for sure. I do prefer au levain french style breads with no sign of acidity. Apart from converting my starter to stiffer, can you suggest me any tips for bread making such bulk fermentations time etc…as I do not want to leave to long so it will taste sour.
    By the way how do I know when the starter is ready if this is stiffer so I might not pass the float taste ?.

    Thank you so much

    Martz

  9. I am so intrigued about the italian stiff starter soaked in water to proof method. I saw couple of pictures/videos of floating rolls of dough on instagram but that’s all, nobody says or shows how to proceed or more info. You were the most informative link so far I’ve come across and I was wondering if you can give me any suggestions of links or books that I can learn more about this technique.
    Much appreciated

  10. Hi, I’m about to try my first panettone soon and would like to know if the 16-18°C maintenance is in regards to the both the water temperature and the madre, or just the water temp. Currently my madre temps are ending up at about 21-24°C after mix, and while the water temp is 17-18°. It floats within 2hrs, but I am concerned the dough temps might be too high thus giving me inaccurate feedback. Anyhow, thanks for your time and all the good info.

  11. Hi
    What does the texture of the feeder starter look and feel like after the refreshing? I’m concerned mine doesn’t look or feel right?
    Thank you in advance
    Jonny

      • Thanks Michael
        When using the bound method I’ve read that you put the dough through the dough sheeted to build more strength, then wrap into a log and wrap in cloth then bound. Is this correct, and if so, how long do we leave out and what temperature before refrigerating?

      • Certainly that is one method. Using a sheeter is useful way to knead such a firm dough. Normally you would allow the rope to pull taut before refrigerating (about 1 hour). You only need to refrigerate if you are letting it ferment for more than 24 hours otherwise keeping it at 18-20C is fine.

  12. Hi Michael!
    What type of plastic do you recommend for wrapping, prior to rolling up in the cloth? I would assume you would want a thicker, 3-4mil plastic, as I have tried thinner and the madre just blows out. I’m not sure if the rolls of clear plastic found at a hardware store are food grade.
    Thanks! Jason

    • Hi Jason.
      I use cling film/wrap, it works well enough for me. However stronger/thicker plastic would be most suitable and I have used food “freezer bags” in the past. Bear in mind it is possible to fore-go the plastic altogether…

      • Hey Michael- Is it always a good idea to bathe the yeast prior to starting the refreshment regimen for baking? How do you determine if it needs to be bathed? My wrapped madre has been fermenting to a ph of 4.1-4.2 at 62F – I feed at this stage.
        Thanks again for the help!
        Jason

      • Hi Jason. Massari recommends bathing be done always after the storage phase and before refreshments. Although the bound method promotes the development lactic acid the madre still developes acetic acid during the storage period. The bathing removes the acetic acid.

  13. Hi Michael – if I join the site, will I be able to send you some pics? I have some Panettone pics I’d like to send. Jason

  14. Hi Michael- Is it imperative to feed at 1:1 (madre to flour)? I feel my madre is sitting static at a ph of 4.1-4.2 for an extended period (feeding every 24 hours). I checked the ph of the refreshed madre and it was at 4.7, which I believe should be around 5.0. Should I reduce the amount of mature madre for refreshments to 0.5:1 or continue at 1:1, and feed more frequently (every 12 hours)? FYI-I store it wrapped. Do you have a book available on Lievito Madre? Thank you! Jason

  15. Hi,
    Do you sell Italian dried sourdough starter?
    I’m looking for it and would like to buy it if you mau sell it.

    Thank you
    Elny

  16. Hi Ann,
    Thanks for sharing..

    Wld you pls kindly share how to convert sourdough starter to Pasta Madre?
    I have strong starter and wondering if I can convert it to pasta madre and nurturing it by using PM Method afterwards.

    Many thanks.
    Elny

  17. Hi Michael,
    I have regular starter sourdough that being fed once a week with 100% hydration.
    Is this starter be able to converted into pasta madre? If yes, how?

    Pls advise Michael. Many thanks for your kind assist.

    • Hi. Simply adjust the hydration and then keep it in the standard way. I.e. Refresh 3 times, lasting 4 hours each time at 28-30C. Then keep at room temperature for 12-24 hours before repeating the refreshments. When it triples in volume each time then it is ready.

  18. Hi Michael, thanks for sharing about lievito madre. If I keep a stiff 40% starter (1:2) in water at 20-25C, refreshing every 12hrs… before refresh should I give the starter a water bath first? At what temp should be the water bath?

    Thanks.
    Jason

    • Hi Jason, is that true 40% hydration? I ask because I would expect most to find that low hydration difficult to work with.

      In terms of maintenance of the mother the feed ratio should be 1:1 unless it becomes persistently too strong (low pH – <4). You can potentially skip the bath if you are feeding frequently enough. The bath helps remove volatile acetic acid.

      • Hi Michael, thanks for the reply. I read in your Fresh Loaf blog that you cut the starter dough and autolysed dough into 8 pieces then knead individually before combining into one dough to knead again… is this the standard method for making pasta madre leavened bread and why?

      • Hi Jason. No not a standard method but merely a solution I came up with to overcome the limitations of my rather ineffective mixer.

  19. Michael,
    I’ve been reading your website quite a bit, wonderful information here! I just made my first panettone dough after maintaining my starter for quite a while (I feed 2x a day, each time rolled and submerged in cold water from the fridge, it rises up after about an hour or so and comes out of the container after 12 hours).

    I’m doing a Giorilli recipe and the primo impasto went really well, after 12 hrs at 26-28C the dough more than tripled. I mixed up the secondo impasto and things were looking great, a nice and strong dough, sleek, shiny. I did 2x 600g panettoni but I fear the molds I used were too large (they’re 6+” x 4+”), regardless, after sitting for 8 hours the dough is puffing up but barely, nowhere near even half the height of the mold. I’m going to let them go overnight at 28C and see how they are in the morning.

    The strange thing is, during the three reactivation refreshments things looked promising, and the first dough was incredibly active. I’m a very experienced sourdough baker and know the effects of sugar/honey on natural leavening, so panettone in general kind of blows my mind, but any guesses as to why my second dough stalled out?

    I appreciate any help you might have!

    • Hi Maurizio, The dimensions you list approximate moulds for 750g panettone. The rising issue is odd but could be the cause of multiple possibilities which will require further investigation.

      I’ll send you a PM on TheFreshLoaf and if you wish we can discuss further.

      • Would love to hear the rest of this conversation! I am waking up early next morning to do my first feeding of my 100% hydration starter into a 40% starter (lievito madre). I will report back in a week, I did want to say thank you for collecting this useful information in one place! I make 100% naturally leavened enriched doughs all the time (brioche/croissants) but haven’t had the luxury of time to try my hand at Panettone. I make the Eastern European version of Panettone (it’s naturally leavened as well) called Paska/Kulich.

  20. Michael,

    Such great info here and on your FreshLoaf blog- I have a dozen tabs open on my computer for reference!

    In the past I’ve made a few very premature attempts at making making panettone and not had any success. I’m sure that this is largely due to having an inadequately maintained lievito madre. Now I’m trying to culture a healthy LM before making another attempt at panettone. There are so many questions of course, but two things I’m curious about if you have the time to indulge me with some answer:

    1. I see that some people roll out their LM and keep it in a spiral (both bound and in water…) aside from developing gluten from the mechanical action, what else does this accomplish and is it necessary if I knead the dough to a similar state of development?

    2. If I am keeping the LM in water (maintenance mode, feeding every 12-24hrs), I’ve read that the optimal storage temperature is 18-20ºC. If this is the case, I would assume that the water temperature should be about the same, however I have read that some recommend water at 14ºC or cooler. Is this simply to slow down the fermentation or are there other reasons at play?

    ok, question 3. If I’m trying to build up the strength of my LM (from reading the texts you’ve linked to, I believe mine is weak), would you recommend using a higher percentage of the LM when refreshing, or keeping the storage temperature higher?

    Ok thanks for your time!

    • Thanks Jay.
      To address your questions..
      1. No it’s not necessary, it is merely as you noted a kneading method.
      2. Different bakers each have their own guidelines but the overall principle remains the same.
      3. If by strength you mean leavening ability then giving it the full 24 hours in water at below 20C will sort that out. But make sure you give it at least one refresh @ 28C lasting 4hrs each day.

      • Hi Michael,

        I was wondering if you could elaborate just a little more about your feeding/maintenance schedule/process.

        For the last 2 months I have tried maintaining a LM at room temperature, I live in a hot climate and have been feeding my starter twice a day or every 12 hours. I wanted to build up an extremely strong mother in time for holiday baking and I think what happened is that my mother from all the high temps actually became too acidic/acetic. I have been feeding the lievito madre a 1:1: at 35% hydration. I have now switched to a different feeding schedule, I keep the lievito madre in the fridge and feed every two days/with a sugar bath.

        As an experiment, the temperature has actually dropped to 19/20C I put the LM in water and fed it almost 24 hours ago. Something you mentioned intrigued me, and I think I have been seeing it on instagram, “But make sure you give it at least one refresh @ 28C lasting 4hrs each day.” So when does this take place? So technically is that a total of 3 feedings in 24 hours? 1:1:.35 keep for 12 hours or 24 hours at 19C then refresh keep at 27/28 for 4 hours then refresh again and keep at 19C again?

        Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!!!!

      • hey Ogi,

        I think if you are dealing with the PM “consuming” the new flour by then time you refresh, you can feed it at a 1PM:2 flour: 45% hydration and store it dry or change the hydration to 35% if storing in water. Storing at 20C is fine.

        I think he means that to boost strength, you occasionally can do a refresh, by feeding it and keeping at 28C for 2-3 hours and then continuing on with maintenance as usual. If you are on IG, then look for “mondopane” he has a type up guide on PM maintenance and you can get it for about 15$. It seems legitamate and correlates with things I have read elsewhere, notably the “bakestreet” account.

  21. He’s back! glad to see you’re back Michael. The above reply is a funny coincidence, I was just reading the modernist bread section on panettone, and they recommend refreshing the LM with sugar…not sure why, as I have not seen this anywhere else. They did speak with Roy Schwartzapel fron “this is from Roy” panettone, and perhaps this is his modification. Roy has incredibly open crumb in his panettone, something I am not sure how to get myself, and haven’t seen it to that degree really anywhere else.

    I wanted to share with everyone on here:
    https://bake-street.com/en/how-to-make-stiff-sourdough-for-panettone/
    because so many times when having issues with panettone it comes down to a proper LM. I didn’t understand this until I started over and read bakestreet’s articles.

    Hope you’re staying healthy out there, and if you have any ideas on getting giant alveoli like Roy, let me know!
    Nick

  22. Hi, I’d need help. I’m at a bit of a loss. I made my lievito madre. It is fantastic and full of pockets and bubbles. It doubles/triples within 4-5 hours. But I haven’t the faintest as to how to use it. I’ve read up on it on quite a few sites and blogs. The more I read the more confused I am.The madre I’ve made is 100 g madre, 100 g flour and 50 g spring water (total of 250 g). When I bake with it I will put aside 100 g of starter and feed it 100 g flour and 50 g water, let it rise at least double and put it in the fridge. The rest I feed and use for bakingUntil recently I have been baking with a liquid starter that is 100% hydration. That I can work with – I have no problems there. I use anywhere between 20 to 30 percent of the flour total weight. So if I am baking with  500 g flour then I use 100 to 150 g liquid starter. 
    My question is: Do I use the stiff starter the same way with 20 to 30% of total flour weight? Or is there some other way that madre needs to be used? Somewhere along the way I read that some people will bake at least 8-10 times with the 250 g madre and still have enough left to make the mother for further use. Meaning that they will take out bits at a time and feed it extra amount of flower and water to get the desired starter weight for their upcoming bake.There are lots of places on the web where you can read about starting a stiff starter from scratch. Then there are loads more sites about maintaining the starter. But I have not really found anything about how exactly you use it. Thank you for your kind reply. With regards, Gabi from Hungary

    • When refreshing make enough for your bread plus enough for the next feed. The left over is the new mother. Simply feed that again and put back into storage if not using for another bake. LM must be continuously cycled through refreshments as described on this page.

      Yes, the quantity for bread would be about the same as with liquid starter where you would use 20-30% typically. If you are not following a recipe, adjust your final dough with water to the desired consistency.

  23. Love all the wonderful information in here. I would like to know if its possible to bake a very good panettone using 14.2% protein flour or if this amount is way too much. Thank you!:)

  24. Pingback: Meet the Baker Behind the Loaves: Kristen Dennis of Full Proof Baking |

  25. Hi Michael,

    I’ve been reading up on some of the resources. Just have some questions.

    After feeding for 3 times, the last one being the storage at 15C for 12 hours. Is it then you start your build for the panettone? After the storing for 12 hours?

    Is it okay for you to send your typical schedule for your panettone. As I have done 12 nn mixing that requires me to be up at 12 mn to do the 2nd mixing. Then 7 am or before as well for baking them.

    My body clocks has gone haywire.

    Thank you in Advance.

    Judd

  26. Hi Michael : thanks fro your sharing ; can I ask if there a way we can measure or calculate the lactic:acetic ratio? With TTA, we can know the totally sodium hydroxide used. But is there a math or method to find out the ratio?

  27. thank you so much! i recently started baking panettoni using LM. but i’m a home baker and i have some doubts about it.

    once i have my pasta madre, i should feed it once a week, as i’m not baking every day.
    during the time it’s in the fridge, it’s supposed to be bounded? or in a vacuum bag?

    than if i decide to bake, i should take a piece of it and feed it, in order to activate it. than i’ll add flour and water and than i’m supposed to put it in a container full of water? and once tripled in size and floating it’s ready to use? or should i shape a ball and cut a cross on it and leave it to rise/triple in size by itself in a dry container?

    i would be so grateful if you could help me. i’m not sure if o fully understood every information you’ve given us on this post.

    • Hey there, also a home baker but i have been baking panettone for years, many failures. I recently consulted with a pastry chef so have some useful knowledge maybe…my two cents for what it is worth.

      You can feed it weekly if you’d like, when not baking, but it will be healthier and stronger if you feed it daily. I have been feeding daily and keeping in water overnight.

      Once ready to bake you should feed it daily for at least two days, kept in water or bound at 16-18C overnight. After those two days, you need to do a bath in warm water, then refresh it 3 times before making your first dough. These refreshments are 3-4 hours apart, at 28C, dry with cross cut in the top or rolled into a ball, to a ph of 4.1 (if you have a meter. After you do your second refreshment, take a portion of it and store it for your next bake.

      Check out Bakestreet:
      https://bake-street.com/en/how-to-make-stiff-sourdough-for-panettone/
      https://bake-street.com/en/how-to-make-the-3-preparatory-refreshments/

      Here is a good book too
      https://bread-editions.com/products/panettones-et-autres-viennoiseries-au-levain?variant=36433011507368

      or “ph 4.1” is a good resource.

      Ogi the Yogi on instagram posts a lot about the recipes and has been helpful too for questions.

      Hope that is helpful, email me at nickvalente555@gmail.com if you have more questions and i can try to help. I feel compelled to try as I have suffered through many failed attempts and have done a ton of searching online.

      Nick

  28. Hi, this may sound like a stupid question but during daily maintenance for bound, temperature should be around 15-18C. As i do not have a wine chiller and have a regular fridge whose temp is at 4C, how do i manage this? My ambient temperature / RT is usually around 30C constant

    • Hi Sheila, a LM type starter is best suited to professional settings where strict temperature controls can be applied, as temperature is critical to ensure the correct fermentation properties. Note that, below around 8°C microbial activity begins to shift towards dormancy, which is not so ideal for this process.

      A compromise might be to let the LM leaven a little before refrigerating. If bound, let the strings pull taut or if in water let it float before moving to the fridge. Leavening time will need to be increased. Approx. 18hrs.

  29. Hello Michael,

    I have been reading your blog and also on the fresh loaf and I have to say your panettone is amazing!

    I have been thinking to try my first pasta madre and would appreciate if you can give me some directions..
    For the start I just need to keep my pasta madre in room temperature,wrap with cloth for 12-24hr , then basically feed it daily 1:1:.40 , for at least two weeks before it become mature to move to the next step ( “wash” >”refresh 2-3times” ) ?

    Am I correct? Or I still need to “wash” and do refresh (at least once ) every day at this early stage?

    Sorry you might probably answered this a lot of time but I am still getting very confuse after reading so many posts on internet/ Instagram…

    Much appreciated for your help.

    Thanks Gladys

    • Hi Gladys,

      Thanks for your kind words.

      Well, there isn’t one set way to do this but what you describe sounds about right. In simplistic terms the goal is to achieve a dough that rises to triple volume within 4 hours. At that point you can refresh 1:1 and according to the times and temperatures as shown on the infographic on this page. 3 daily refreshes and one overnight for three days is typically recommended.

      The washing nearly always occurs after the overnight phase and is appropriate where binding is used.

      Hope that helps,

      Michael

      • Hello Michael,

        Thank you so much for your help! I am now in day 7 which is still very early stage. I keep my PM in bound 18C in wine fridge for 24 hours then feed 1:1 … but I will start to do the washing from now on before I feed next time.

        Once again thank you so much for your time. Much appreciated. 🙂

        Gladys

  30. thanks so much for this amazing information! I was wondering if you can advise regarding flour. I want to convert my 100% hydration starter to a PM for the panettone season. I feed my starter canadian white all purpose flour (milanese). In many italian sources they seem to recommend 00 flour of w350-380 to maintain the PM. From what I understand w380 is equivalent to strong bread flour? I find it very difficult to find 00 flour that is also very strong here in canada, but maybe its just my limited understanding of flour? would caputo antimo 00 be sufficient or should I use strong bread flour? or something else? I also feel similarly confused regarding which flour to use for the panettone itself? 00/bread flour/etc? I know thi sis a very general question as a lot of it will depend on recipe and method, but at least to keep the PM maintained in a healthy and correct way I would really appreciate if you can let me know of an ideal white flour to use

  31. Hi Michael, thanks so much for putting together the information on this page! I’ve been referring to it a lot and trying to digest the information each time. Is there a difference in acidity (like when you measure using a PH meter) between the bound and the water conservation method? My PM has been hovering in the 4.3-4.4 level after keeping it at 20-23hrs bound in cloth at 18C…and I can’t seem to get the ph reading to go down to 3.9-4.1. Is it a matter of letting it ferment longer than 23 hrs? thank you!

    • Hi Lynn,

      As a general rule the bound method favours more lactic development while the in-water method discourages lactic development and lactic acid is the primary driver of pH descension. Letting it ferment longer will surely do the trick.

  32. Hi Michael,
    Thank you for your post, big help! I think my LM will be ready tomorrow for washing then refresh 3 times before being used in a panettone. For the refresh, do you use the same amount of LM and flour each time? Meaning: if I get 5og LM, do I refresh it with 50g flour and 20g water or do I refresh 50g with 100g flour and 40g water? Thanks in advance!

  33. Hi Michael! I was wondering if you could advise me on my PM. I do overnight rest in water. my PM after mixing is 27c. i roll it up and put it in water that is around 18c for around 12-16hours. After this time the PM is floating but lately its not doubling or trippling. is that a problem while im doing rest in water? The PH after 12-16hours is around 3.95. I’m trying to bring it back up to 4.1 but seem to have issues. I’m using manitoba flour from italy. After every 12-16hr rest I feed it 1:1:0.35 and put it in 28c temps for 4 hours (just rolled in a bowl without water. The ph at the end of the 4hours is closer to 4.1 but the PM doesnt double.

    Does all this mean my PM is a bit weak? I cant figure out if it just needs more time in the schedule i mentioend above or if im doing something wrong. I also bath it in sugar water like you described after 3 days.

    thank you for your help! ❤

    • Hi David. Typically issues arise when the acid load (TTA) is too high. Since you are measuring pH, you can roughly gauge this by taking the starting pH when fed 1:1. Ideally it should be between 4.8-5.0. If below 4.8 then there is too much acid present and a 1:2 feed should be used to correct it. In this case, let it leaven past the 4 hours until tripled, if the end pH is lower than 4.0 (likely) then repeat once more using 1:2 before going back to 1:1 using the typical daily cycle.

      Hope that helps,
      Michael

      • Thank you so much Michael! I proceeded with a 1:2 feed, but even after 12hours in 28c it didnt even double. felt almost like its dead but when i cut it open i can see life inside. the ph was around 3.8. I proceeded with another identical feed and kept again in 28c, the next day (around 16hours) it barley doubled again. I’m starting to suspect it could also be the flour quality. I’m using barilla manitoba because its all i could find here in montreal that comes similar to the flour needed (i have no idea if there’s a better option here, AP isn’t right for it from what i understood and they dont measure flour in W here so I’m confused). I have another flour thats marked for panettone, so I’m doing a feed today with the new flour, and one with the barilla again to see the differences. I know the PM can get very tired, maybe thats what I did here and it could use a rest in the fridge for a few days? Its so frustrating (and im sure thats normal) but it looked so alive and great last week. For reference, i converted my 100%hydration super strong starter to the PM about 2 weeks ago and have been alternating 1:1 or 1:2 feeds in 28c, and overnight rests in 18c water.

        Thanks again for all your info and help, I truly appreciate it.

  34. Hi there Michael
    If wanting to start from a traditional starter used for bread, 1:1:0.25 (flour:water:starter) can this be done, and how long would you recommend to do this for before being mature enough ?
    Thank you 🙂

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